I so love that there is finally public conversations happening around this. The weight of patriarchy and how it impacts women's lives, physically, mentally, personally, professionally--all of it is tied up in ideas of transaction, consent, and care for others. It needs to all be re-evaluated and seen for what it is. Traveling I was shocked to see so many women hiding their infants under capes as they breastfed and all I could think of is that this compulsion to hide breastfeeding is all for the male gaze--to not dare show that women's bodies are actually life-giving, and to keep women's bodies hidden to maintain the illusion of being solely sexual objects for the gaze of adult men. Oof.
Absolutely. What a great connection to make. I do think you are right, that men want breasts to be for them, thus the aversion to seeing their true purpose.
There is so much here. I know what touched out is like. I had 3 kids under 5 and I needed my own space. Couldn’t even bear the pets sitting on me. BUT, we kept having sex because even with all that and though I was tired, I knew the physical release that is orgasm was good for me. It was quick as we knew exactly which buttons to press to get there and it was always good. So while I understand wanting a hiatus from sex, I found that putting aside desire and enjoying the explosive physical orgasm that our bodies generate was so good for me—sex is fun and free and I can’t believe I’m the only one who feels this way! I think if we talk ourselves out of why it is so good, we can end up doing ourselves a huge disservice.
I think you are right that sometimes there is some healing power in an explosive orgasm. But that can be had without the emotional labor of engaging with a spouse who you do not want to touch you. You are not the only one who feels like sex is fun and free. But there are certainly times in a woman's life when it does not feel fun and it does not feel free. It has a cost. There should be room for saying no, for saying "my body is not up for consumption right now." That isn't doing yourselves a disservice. That is prioritizing your own care.
This was so interesting and I think the emotional/social/psychological aspects of decreased desire are really critical, but I also think that we don't understand nearly enough about the physical/biological side too. Hormones shift wildly during and after pregnancy and other things (like PCOS) can also impact the hormones that are associated with desire too. The combo of biology+caregiving+exhaustion is a doozy and it's kind of a miracle anyone wants sex during the young kids at home stage.
"I think it is worth interrogating why so many men default to sex being the way they feel connected."
Such statements imply (many) men only feel connected by sex. That is of course ludicrous. In marriages, men and women alike feel other kinds of connections, like talking to each other with real attention and sympathy; raising kids together; doing things to take care of each other, and on and on. Sex is often a big one, but rarely the only one.
What this kind of statement question makes me want to interrogate is what modes of connection are considered superior? How do women already feel more connected, that men should presumably be feeling that way instead of just horny? I'm guessing "Being Listened To" would be high on the list. If nothing else, it comports with my experience in relationships with women up to and including marriage.
I have no quibbles with Being Listened To as a valid and important way to intimately connect. I'm a big fan, on both the giving and receiving end of listening. So, imagine a man who is a terrific listener - not just faking it, but a bona fide listener - all the way leading up to marriage with a partner who's love is partly (not entirely) built on that key feature. He keeps right on listening up until...I don't know, maybe having some kids, or a job that consumes more time and energy than it used to, and due to circumstances other than malice, stops being a Good Listener. He'll make a token effort and listen extra on birthdays and big Holidays, but she can tell he's not as enthusiastic as he used to be. Plus, he hardly ever starts conversations anymore. When his wife tries to talk like they used to, and is perfectly willing to listen back, he's just too tired, not interested, or whatever. He still expresses love in many other ways, but she misses that way a lot. To make this more analogous to when a wife stops wanting sex, he's the only one she can go to for a good talk.
We don't need being listened to to survive. We can get by with just enough communication to get through each day. So, what toxic cultural influence convinces women their partners owe them any such attention? Is it worth interrogating why so many women default to being listened to as the default way they feel connected?
As a friend or reader, I would have (and have had) sympathy in that kind of scenario, where the man gradually (or suddenly) stopped doing the things that made women feel connected in the first place. I'm guessing many if not all in this discussion would feel that, too, but what no one ever does when it's the woman feeling disconnected is talk about how entitled and toxically influenced she is to crave that kind of connection on the first place. More often than not, the man who is not providing enough of the connection she needs is cast as a villain. He's too distant. He needs to be a "real man" and make her feel loved again. Etc.
I do not think a woman whose libido drops or disappears because of hormones, being "touched out", or whatever other combination of reasons is a villain. I think a man coping with such distress or grief over losing an important way of connecting with the only person he expected to have that connection for the rest of his life, actually warrants some sympathy, like his women counterparts get when they grieve something they have lost (emotionally) in their relationships.
I agree that it’s not ‘evil’ for a man to desire sex from his partner. But listening, while important and a genuine skill, and of course can be affected by stresses in your life, isn’t exactly the same as sex. I can listen attentively with a horrible sore throat - I can’t give a blow job without pain when I do. I can listen attentively with a severe postpartum tear healing. I can’t have penetrative sex.
If my husband came to me and said, I’m having a hard time at my new job, is it ok if I’m phoning it in on listening to you for six months, I’d say, aw, thats rough sweetie, of course and how can I help with your stresses. if i went to my husband and said don’t even try to initiate sex for six months while I heal, I’m not sure what he’d say. From my conversations with lots of other women, we seem to be in similar boats. If as a woman, you leave your husband for not listening, statistically you will still bear most of the financial and time and emotional labor of raising your (shared) kids. If as a man you leave your wife for not having sex with you, she’ll still do all the home front stuff she was doing before, you’ll continue to have time on your hands, and maybe another woman who’s not too exhausted to have sex with you.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I drafted another reply in response, but it got so long I think it would be more polite for me to craft an essay out of it in my own space than to run the risk of hijacking the discussion here, which I definitely don't want to do. Loss of intimacy (of all kinds) is a subject I've thought about and read about a lot, so I appreciate the chance to engage in discussion about it with open minds and hearts.
"Not only are many people actively embracing asexuality ..."
One way to frame at least some cases of mismatched libidos is as a case of mismatched *orientations*. Unlike other orientations, that I tend to think of as lifelong (perhaps incorrectly), asexuality seems to be one that some people "embrace" after having previously been something else, like heterosexual. That doesn't happen intentionally, but neither is it the sexual partner's fault for feeling abandoned.
If a partner identifies and actively behaves as "sexual" for some years prior to becoming asexual, that is a massive shift in the emotional and physical dynamic for all involved. I think the idea of asexuality as an orientation is largely unfamiliar to people over 30 or so, but functionally it fits at least one partner in marriages that have lasted a while.
Wowowowowowowwow “CD: The hosts say: “if that’s how he feels connected, they are going to have to find something to replace that.” I think it is worth interrogating why so many men default to sex being the way they feel connected. They have been socialized to connect via their dicks instead of their hearts. Rather than cater to that socialization, we could encourage them to expand their repertoire of intimate connection, so that something remains when their spouse goes through a time when they desire celibacy. How can we fight against this patriarchal idea that sex is the only way men feel closeness, or the best way to get them to feel connected?” This whole interview is so powerful and I’m so glad the conversation has opened up. I wish I’d had it 23 years ago.
Yes, like, why has it taken so long for us to be talking about this? I honestly think we needed #metoo and for us to recognize the ways we feel some of the same feelings, like men can just take what they want and are entitled to it, in our relationships as well. this internal patriarchy runs deep.
a family/couples therapist (and oh yeah, a husband) I get these dilemmas and discussions. I may. have missed it, but sometimes taking a couple back to the beginning, the things that brought them together, changes the perspective... at least they have a "together" starting point. If, indeed, sex is the thing that brought them together, looking back might uncover the other facets of life that brought-- and kept-- them together
I so love that there is finally public conversations happening around this. The weight of patriarchy and how it impacts women's lives, physically, mentally, personally, professionally--all of it is tied up in ideas of transaction, consent, and care for others. It needs to all be re-evaluated and seen for what it is. Traveling I was shocked to see so many women hiding their infants under capes as they breastfed and all I could think of is that this compulsion to hide breastfeeding is all for the male gaze--to not dare show that women's bodies are actually life-giving, and to keep women's bodies hidden to maintain the illusion of being solely sexual objects for the gaze of adult men. Oof.
Absolutely. What a great connection to make. I do think you are right, that men want breasts to be for them, thus the aversion to seeing their true purpose.
yeah, it really is stunning when you think about the practices women accept. The roots lie so deeply in patriarchy. Sigh.
There is so much here. I know what touched out is like. I had 3 kids under 5 and I needed my own space. Couldn’t even bear the pets sitting on me. BUT, we kept having sex because even with all that and though I was tired, I knew the physical release that is orgasm was good for me. It was quick as we knew exactly which buttons to press to get there and it was always good. So while I understand wanting a hiatus from sex, I found that putting aside desire and enjoying the explosive physical orgasm that our bodies generate was so good for me—sex is fun and free and I can’t believe I’m the only one who feels this way! I think if we talk ourselves out of why it is so good, we can end up doing ourselves a huge disservice.
I think you are right that sometimes there is some healing power in an explosive orgasm. But that can be had without the emotional labor of engaging with a spouse who you do not want to touch you. You are not the only one who feels like sex is fun and free. But there are certainly times in a woman's life when it does not feel fun and it does not feel free. It has a cost. There should be room for saying no, for saying "my body is not up for consumption right now." That isn't doing yourselves a disservice. That is prioritizing your own care.
I see that. Also, critically, our lovers need to pick up their game at this time. It’s not about them.
This was so interesting and I think the emotional/social/psychological aspects of decreased desire are really critical, but I also think that we don't understand nearly enough about the physical/biological side too. Hormones shift wildly during and after pregnancy and other things (like PCOS) can also impact the hormones that are associated with desire too. The combo of biology+caregiving+exhaustion is a doozy and it's kind of a miracle anyone wants sex during the young kids at home stage.
"I think it is worth interrogating why so many men default to sex being the way they feel connected."
Such statements imply (many) men only feel connected by sex. That is of course ludicrous. In marriages, men and women alike feel other kinds of connections, like talking to each other with real attention and sympathy; raising kids together; doing things to take care of each other, and on and on. Sex is often a big one, but rarely the only one.
What this kind of statement question makes me want to interrogate is what modes of connection are considered superior? How do women already feel more connected, that men should presumably be feeling that way instead of just horny? I'm guessing "Being Listened To" would be high on the list. If nothing else, it comports with my experience in relationships with women up to and including marriage.
I have no quibbles with Being Listened To as a valid and important way to intimately connect. I'm a big fan, on both the giving and receiving end of listening. So, imagine a man who is a terrific listener - not just faking it, but a bona fide listener - all the way leading up to marriage with a partner who's love is partly (not entirely) built on that key feature. He keeps right on listening up until...I don't know, maybe having some kids, or a job that consumes more time and energy than it used to, and due to circumstances other than malice, stops being a Good Listener. He'll make a token effort and listen extra on birthdays and big Holidays, but she can tell he's not as enthusiastic as he used to be. Plus, he hardly ever starts conversations anymore. When his wife tries to talk like they used to, and is perfectly willing to listen back, he's just too tired, not interested, or whatever. He still expresses love in many other ways, but she misses that way a lot. To make this more analogous to when a wife stops wanting sex, he's the only one she can go to for a good talk.
We don't need being listened to to survive. We can get by with just enough communication to get through each day. So, what toxic cultural influence convinces women their partners owe them any such attention? Is it worth interrogating why so many women default to being listened to as the default way they feel connected?
As a friend or reader, I would have (and have had) sympathy in that kind of scenario, where the man gradually (or suddenly) stopped doing the things that made women feel connected in the first place. I'm guessing many if not all in this discussion would feel that, too, but what no one ever does when it's the woman feeling disconnected is talk about how entitled and toxically influenced she is to crave that kind of connection on the first place. More often than not, the man who is not providing enough of the connection she needs is cast as a villain. He's too distant. He needs to be a "real man" and make her feel loved again. Etc.
I do not think a woman whose libido drops or disappears because of hormones, being "touched out", or whatever other combination of reasons is a villain. I think a man coping with such distress or grief over losing an important way of connecting with the only person he expected to have that connection for the rest of his life, actually warrants some sympathy, like his women counterparts get when they grieve something they have lost (emotionally) in their relationships.
I agree that it’s not ‘evil’ for a man to desire sex from his partner. But listening, while important and a genuine skill, and of course can be affected by stresses in your life, isn’t exactly the same as sex. I can listen attentively with a horrible sore throat - I can’t give a blow job without pain when I do. I can listen attentively with a severe postpartum tear healing. I can’t have penetrative sex.
If my husband came to me and said, I’m having a hard time at my new job, is it ok if I’m phoning it in on listening to you for six months, I’d say, aw, thats rough sweetie, of course and how can I help with your stresses. if i went to my husband and said don’t even try to initiate sex for six months while I heal, I’m not sure what he’d say. From my conversations with lots of other women, we seem to be in similar boats. If as a woman, you leave your husband for not listening, statistically you will still bear most of the financial and time and emotional labor of raising your (shared) kids. If as a man you leave your wife for not having sex with you, she’ll still do all the home front stuff she was doing before, you’ll continue to have time on your hands, and maybe another woman who’s not too exhausted to have sex with you.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I drafted another reply in response, but it got so long I think it would be more polite for me to craft an essay out of it in my own space than to run the risk of hijacking the discussion here, which I definitely don't want to do. Loss of intimacy (of all kinds) is a subject I've thought about and read about a lot, so I appreciate the chance to engage in discussion about it with open minds and hearts.
[This will be shorter :) ]
"Not only are many people actively embracing asexuality ..."
One way to frame at least some cases of mismatched libidos is as a case of mismatched *orientations*. Unlike other orientations, that I tend to think of as lifelong (perhaps incorrectly), asexuality seems to be one that some people "embrace" after having previously been something else, like heterosexual. That doesn't happen intentionally, but neither is it the sexual partner's fault for feeling abandoned.
If a partner identifies and actively behaves as "sexual" for some years prior to becoming asexual, that is a massive shift in the emotional and physical dynamic for all involved. I think the idea of asexuality as an orientation is largely unfamiliar to people over 30 or so, but functionally it fits at least one partner in marriages that have lasted a while.
So important. One of the many reasons my marriage ended.
Thank you and I'm sorry.
Wowowowowowowwow “CD: The hosts say: “if that’s how he feels connected, they are going to have to find something to replace that.” I think it is worth interrogating why so many men default to sex being the way they feel connected. They have been socialized to connect via their dicks instead of their hearts. Rather than cater to that socialization, we could encourage them to expand their repertoire of intimate connection, so that something remains when their spouse goes through a time when they desire celibacy. How can we fight against this patriarchal idea that sex is the only way men feel closeness, or the best way to get them to feel connected?” This whole interview is so powerful and I’m so glad the conversation has opened up. I wish I’d had it 23 years ago.
Yes, like, why has it taken so long for us to be talking about this? I honestly think we needed #metoo and for us to recognize the ways we feel some of the same feelings, like men can just take what they want and are entitled to it, in our relationships as well. this internal patriarchy runs deep.
a family/couples therapist (and oh yeah, a husband) I get these dilemmas and discussions. I may. have missed it, but sometimes taking a couple back to the beginning, the things that brought them together, changes the perspective... at least they have a "together" starting point. If, indeed, sex is the thing that brought them together, looking back might uncover the other facets of life that brought-- and kept-- them together