Yep! And Bandit from Bluey totally reinforces this stereotype of the hopeless dad -- granted he is quite hands on as a dad but still the mum is the hero that gets everything done. My husband was actually the one to point this out to his parents.
OMG the pool episode is my absolute favorite because he's all, "we don't need all that stuff, Mom makes it too complicated!" and then it is like...doh!
I am liking this but am conflicted with how I feel about it. Ultimately, I think, this infantalizing of men is one small part of the picture and conversations that can be had.
Other factors I thought of are: people marry into familiar patterns; people grow when in a relationship then get resentful of the patterns they married into; there is no one who is going to read a person's mind or always have the same ideas as to what would constitute romance/fun/care; effective communication can solve a lot.
And, for the record, this piece helped me remember how damn lucky I got with my husband. I followed familiar patterns but got lucky. Phew.
I completely agree that it is a small picture. I just wanted to insinuate that it is a piece. and that when we see these messages pop up, we might want to fight against them rather than let them slide. Like, I totally get bonding over the shared comedy of helpless husbands. You don't feel alone, right? But there is a cost to that kind of normalization as well. I'm so glad that it helped you remember you got lucky. I just want it to be less of a crap shoot, and more like, the norm, you know?
Totally. This strikes me as a helpful part of the conversation. Helpful because, from your writing, people will recognize themselves or memes or something as part of this picture. Yes, thank you for writing it.
You're absolutely right, I have an article on talking to your partner and how important they are. Everyone has their own views on the world, relationships, marriage and everything else. And we need to constantly communicate with our partner to find common ground. We need to discuss issues that we have to discuss before we get married: financial, household, etc.
Couldn't agree more that both spouses should be presumed to be equally competent / responsible for all aspects of their lives together until/unless they mutually agree to share that responsibility differently. *Presuming* an imbalance simply due to traditional gender roles is inherently unfair ... a "weaponized helplessness" as you so aptly described it.
I'm sure you are similarly principled in refusing spousal support from your ex-husband.
Because being paid an allowance just to get the exact lifestyle you've come to expect ... well, that would be an infantilization as you have defined it:
- Being treated as a dependent, as though one can't be expected to take on full responsibility for all that being an adult entails
- Feeling entitled to an uneven distribution of responsibility just because they've grown accustomed to it (like expecting a wife to cook for a husband just because his mother did)
Curious to hear if you are in agreement with that.
And if not, how you reconcile treating those two things differently.
But that doesn't make my question inherently less valid, does it?
I divorced my ex-husband six years ago. I take solace in your writing that I made the right decision. The difference is that I do not pretend that his disproportionate financial contribution to our marriage did not exist.
I don't pretend I was the only one picking up slack based on unspoken gender roles.
I have stopped supporting him. He should not be expected to keep supporting me.
If not legally, then morally and logically.
That choice was difficult, but empowering. It allowed me to become a whole person again ... not dependent upon anyone else. Just as I cast off his dependence upon me.
Once again, I'm simply asking whether you are choosing to be what you are demanding of men. Equally self-sufficient. Or if you are criticizing men for what they can get away with while married, while doing the very same thing yourself in your divorce.
If you believe that you are absolved from answering simply because your ex-husband had similar questions ... I suppose that is your right.
I believe I am absolved from answering because you are my ex-husband airing your thoughts here because I have refused to respond to your demands that I listen to your side in my personal life. And if that is the case, that is very sad. If you are who you say you are, "Jill," I'm sorry, but your line of argument feels too much like arguing with my ex for me to engage with.
Yep! And Bandit from Bluey totally reinforces this stereotype of the hopeless dad -- granted he is quite hands on as a dad but still the mum is the hero that gets everything done. My husband was actually the one to point this out to his parents.
OMG the pool episode is my absolute favorite because he's all, "we don't need all that stuff, Mom makes it too complicated!" and then it is like...doh!
Hahaha me too!
I am liking this but am conflicted with how I feel about it. Ultimately, I think, this infantalizing of men is one small part of the picture and conversations that can be had.
Other factors I thought of are: people marry into familiar patterns; people grow when in a relationship then get resentful of the patterns they married into; there is no one who is going to read a person's mind or always have the same ideas as to what would constitute romance/fun/care; effective communication can solve a lot.
And, for the record, this piece helped me remember how damn lucky I got with my husband. I followed familiar patterns but got lucky. Phew.
I completely agree that it is a small picture. I just wanted to insinuate that it is a piece. and that when we see these messages pop up, we might want to fight against them rather than let them slide. Like, I totally get bonding over the shared comedy of helpless husbands. You don't feel alone, right? But there is a cost to that kind of normalization as well. I'm so glad that it helped you remember you got lucky. I just want it to be less of a crap shoot, and more like, the norm, you know?
Totally. This strikes me as a helpful part of the conversation. Helpful because, from your writing, people will recognize themselves or memes or something as part of this picture. Yes, thank you for writing it.
You're absolutely right, I have an article on talking to your partner and how important they are. Everyone has their own views on the world, relationships, marriage and everything else. And we need to constantly communicate with our partner to find common ground. We need to discuss issues that we have to discuss before we get married: financial, household, etc.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jillbakercfa/
I accept your apology.
And I'm sorry your experience with your ex-husband makes my perspective triggering for you. That must be hard and I wish you well.
Couldn't agree more that both spouses should be presumed to be equally competent / responsible for all aspects of their lives together until/unless they mutually agree to share that responsibility differently. *Presuming* an imbalance simply due to traditional gender roles is inherently unfair ... a "weaponized helplessness" as you so aptly described it.
I'm sure you are similarly principled in refusing spousal support from your ex-husband.
Because being paid an allowance just to get the exact lifestyle you've come to expect ... well, that would be an infantilization as you have defined it:
- Being treated as a dependent, as though one can't be expected to take on full responsibility for all that being an adult entails
- Feeling entitled to an uneven distribution of responsibility just because they've grown accustomed to it (like expecting a wife to cook for a husband just because his mother did)
Curious to hear if you are in agreement with that.
And if not, how you reconcile treating those two things differently.
You sound so much like my husband, "Jill."
I suspect I sound like quite a few ex-husbands.
But that doesn't make my question inherently less valid, does it?
I divorced my ex-husband six years ago. I take solace in your writing that I made the right decision. The difference is that I do not pretend that his disproportionate financial contribution to our marriage did not exist.
I don't pretend I was the only one picking up slack based on unspoken gender roles.
I have stopped supporting him. He should not be expected to keep supporting me.
If not legally, then morally and logically.
That choice was difficult, but empowering. It allowed me to become a whole person again ... not dependent upon anyone else. Just as I cast off his dependence upon me.
Once again, I'm simply asking whether you are choosing to be what you are demanding of men. Equally self-sufficient. Or if you are criticizing men for what they can get away with while married, while doing the very same thing yourself in your divorce.
If you believe that you are absolved from answering simply because your ex-husband had similar questions ... I suppose that is your right.
But it's not a very compelling response.
I believe I am absolved from answering because you are my ex-husband airing your thoughts here because I have refused to respond to your demands that I listen to your side in my personal life. And if that is the case, that is very sad. If you are who you say you are, "Jill," I'm sorry, but your line of argument feels too much like arguing with my ex for me to engage with.