Cindy, I loved every word of this thoughtful piece, related to so much of it, and now every one of these books including of course LIARS is on my TBR list. Thanks, too, for linking to my piece on dating after 35 years. I am having the time of my life here in Europe for two months, hanging with my single friends, in their 60s, like me. And quite a number of them are divorced and living full, happy, independent solo lives. Dating and remarriage is really not in the picture and if so it's secondary. They're simply living their best lives. No time to waste! I am appreciating the warm, appraising glances of men as I walk the streets of Stockholm (and soon in Paris and Barcelona) and what's so wonderful about learning these late-in-life lessons about my intrinsic worth and happiness is that the male gaze can come my way, linger and I'll just think, "That's right, my friend. This is what an empowered female looks like." And I walk on by....for now. One of these days, when the timing is right, I may linger and have that conversation, indulge that interest. For now, I'm much too excited to meet up with my friends or take my lovely self for a drink by the waterfront.
Ah...the 14 year mark...if I only I'd been courageous enough then. It took me much longer to get out of the institution and the lies I'd been telling myself about how it served me. That said, I was ready when I was ready and no sooner. If looking back serves my healing, then I give it some space and time to reflect. If not, I move forward.
Mostly, these days, I move forward. The future looks bright.
These past two nights I had spontaneous conversations with women in Stockholm. One was in her mid-30s, an Iranian-Swedish high school teacher who had taken herself out for a drink to listen to jazz (just as I had), no man or any companion needed to enjoy herself--something women her age in Sweden don't often do. But she was so comfortable in her own skin.
And this morning at a coffee shop I had a two hour conversation with a perfect stranger who by the end of it was a friend, a woman of 43, who had a 3 month old baby, the father of the child not interested in being a relationship or parenting, and that was fine with her. She was of Bangladesh heritage, a Californian, living in Sweden for work, and again, so comfortable in her own skin and her own empowered choices. I will have this baby, I will find a way to move to Zurich, I will have a relationship with a man or I won't.
These younger women show me that things can change from the traditional heterosexual married and parenting roles that were so prevalent for me and my friends thirty years ago; certainly I see a lot more "fair play" among younger Swedish couples.
I was married for 20 years, divorced and now find myself an empty-nester… and living alone. I feel like a teenager again, discovering who I should have been. It took some getting used to and going through a divorce was very difficult for everyone involved, but honestly, I’ve never been happier!
I'm on the same reading track as you! Just finished Liars last week and can't stop thinking about it. As a newly separated mom of a young child (I only made it to 8 years), I'm loving being in relationship with myself and my child. But I can't get over how many other married women ask me what dating is like, (I tell them I have no interest), and why I keep wearing my wedding band (because in S.C. I'm still technically married and I'm trying to shield myself from other men!). I know I will never marry again and I'm astounded at how a lot of the topics in divorce support groups is about that very topic - did we not all learn the first time around?!
I can't wait to read this book but also..... I did not know that about 14 years? Which is wild because mine ended after 11 years of marriage but.... 14 years since we had started dating (to the month!).
I'm getting divorced after five years of marriage, but we have also been together 14. And the one time I seriously considered leaving him was around year seven. Itch is a funny way to describe it. For me, it was more of a deep inner knowing, as Glennon describes it, that this was not what I wanted for my life. I was able to push it down and distract myself the first time, but no longer. Reading and learning from other women who have been through it has been a huge source of comfort for me. Grateful for this community and grateful to myself for pushing through this, as messy and impossible as it feels. I know that I will come out of the other side to create the life that I want for myself and my daughter.
I grew up in the wake of my grandparents' terrible marriage, my mother and 1 of her 2 sisters both divorced, the other sister drank herself to death when she couldn't get out. My father left us when the baby was dying, my uncle brought his girlfriend to my aunt's funeral (they were not separated). I came of age in the 80s, and have *never* understood why anyone my age or younger bought the whole love-and-romance-marriage narrative, much less bought it so wholeheartedly. Mary Wollstonecraft died in 1797 and we've been having this same discussion of the "death of marriage" every 40 years ever since.
As Joni Mitchell sang: "Some girls' going to see that dress, and crave that day like crazy."
I only thought of that later -- sorry if I sounded cranky, but the ahistorical nature of this latest round of Divorce Discourse is making my older feminist heart deeply sore. As is the fact that somehow all of our efforts in the 80s and 90s apparently made zero difference.
I think the multiple rounds speak to the fact of how hard it is to escape an institution that our entire society is built around and depends on. It is like breaking generational trauma or the pull of gravity. You have to fight like hell to not get sucked back in.
I think it's like any fight for freedom. We have to keep doing it, and doing it for everyone, and doing it collectively because the forces of power, patriarchy and capitalism will ALWAYS try to take more than their share.
Hi Cindy, a wonderful thoughtful article. Thank you.
I 'escaped' - that word again - an abusive 22 year marriage two decades ago with five children....
Many years later, after many difficult years in the Family Court and ongoing abuse from the father of my children, I have healed. I have worked hard on myself and recovered from the physical and psychological damage I had suffered.
Best of all at 55 I commenced a four year Professional Writing Course which has been an incredible gift and joy. It is never too late to realize you dreams! I love writing and lately poetry has become my genre of choice! Because completely unexpectedly, after two decades of blissfully, jealously enjoying my solitude I have fallen in love. Actually, really fallen in love. With a gentle, romantic and kind man. A respectful, considerate man, who adores me equally. We are having the best sex of our lives at 63 and 67!! I send him erotic poetry to surprise him on his mountain property! My lecturer from the course wants me to share them with her, but I am too shy. Not too shy to be enjoying the best time of my life, where we are doing as we choose, together, joyfully.
I absolutely applaud all those fabulous women out there who are exuding confidence and completeness as single women. It is a well earned place to be and you go girl!
In my case I am now taking many lessons out of the play book of my 40 year old daughter as I now negotiate something I never considered I would think about again - an intimate relationship!
It is glorious to have the chance to practice all my hard earned wisdom and to be met with love.
I love your story and am so happy for you. I do want a fulfilling relationship some day, I think. But when I am ready. And when it is the right person. Cheering you on and thanks for your incredible, hope inducing story.
Every single word is what I have been feeling, examining, and researching, wondering about since I began walking the path of divorce. Each step away from the marriage- which is so much bigger than just the relationship with him- brings a deep sense of freedom and grounding in my true self. It’s wild discovery to have made…
It is so crazy, right? Like no one prepares you for this side of divorce. They only focus on what it does for the kids and how devastating it is. But yes to freedom and grounding in my true self. I feel this too.
I love it, thank you so much for writing this up. I definitely feel that I need some form of companionship and marriage does provide that companionship, but it is sad that generations of men have ruined the institution. I am still navigating around these ideas, and talking and discussing about these pointers with my loved ones.
I too love this proliferation of divorce narratives because even if marriage is not going extinct, there is certainly a surge of liberating ourselves from patriarchal marriage and the expectations intrinsic to nuclear families! And as always I love your take on it.
I also divorced around 14 years (and my divorce papers are finalized on the date of my wedding, literally full circle closing the loop!). Perhaps Saturn returns have something to do with this??
As I grow older and see more types of relationships I'm more open to there being no monolith around marriage, partnership, family structure, etc. Many people I know have monogamous romantic relationships that tremendously help regulate their nervous system and not in a co-dependent way. I for one am not dating and don't have expectations for the future, but I can realize that different lives need to follow different paths.
I totally agree that I think for some, who maybe didn’t have such destructive patterns in their first marriage, it can feel good to get back into a partnership. Because I don’t yet know how to partner without erasing myself, I’m hesitant!
I inhaled Liars. I haven’t read a book that fast in years.
I am having some really hard conversations with my spouse lately about how and why our marriage may not be sustainable. About how and why we may no longer “work”. The other day he picked up Liars off the table and said, “your head has been in this book all weekend, what’s it all about?” When he read the book description, he tossed a, “hmmmm 14 years, huh?” with a raised eyebrow and side stare then walked away. It took me a few minutes to figure out what the hell that was all about and then it hit me. In October we will be married 14 years. I hadn’t even considered or remembered that. Talk about amnesia. 😳
This piece was so well done, Cindy. I felt so much resonance.
I also loved All of This by Rebecca Woolf. It split me open (in the best ways).
And this line you quote from Rebecca: “absence of a need to negotiate and compromise.” Oh my - that is what I am craving. The self abandonment that can creep in while we are zigzagging our way through marriage has recently felt like too much to carry. And too glaring not to look at.
I’m sorry you are in this state. The in between of not knowing whether to stay or not is the hardest part. One I decided I almost felt relief. Also, the comment about “absent the need to negotiate and compromise” was my comment to Rebecca’s piece! But it felt so important, a development in my own thinking, that I wanted to include it. I really feel like all these conversations on Substack are helping us all evolve our thinking about these issues.
I just finished reading Liars two days ago and both the book and your post about it really resonated with me. I got divorced five years ago and I thought I spent enough time in therapy sessions feeling all the feelings about this, but reading Liars unearthed another layer of anger. Perhaps not even directed at my own life but at the patriarchy as a whole. I often wonder if we've emancipated women to live the lives of men, while forgetting to emancipate men to live the lives of women. And now all the women are just doing everything while the men feel left behind and jealous of these successful women? I honestly hope that we can all evolve to a world where you don't have to chose between yourself and your relationship but it can be both.
All of these millennials getting divorced in early midlife were getting married at the socially and patriarchally validated proper age of 24-29. They spent their entire 20s obsessing about their boyfriends, then cohabitation, then fiancés, then weddings, then children. They only talked about their successful heterosexual life stages. They had no interest in talking about their wants or needs in homosocial environments. They made their friends pay $1000s to attend their weddings while making no collateral investment in their friendships with single women. They pitied their single friends. They pressured us to settle. They troubleshot our “dating difficulties” with individual solutions.
They made all of us who were choosing nonconformity feel as shitty as possible because they perceived themselves to be the winners. And winners needs the public existence of “losers” to make themselves feel better.
Guess what?! Your never married friends and your queer friends have known hetero marriage was a scam all along. Where are all of our books and cultural accolades?!? Why can’t we get book contracts and effusive praise for our ACTUAL bravery in rejecting conformity?!? Why can’t a woman who chose polyamory when it was socially inconvenient (before child reading) have her voice heard in the mainstream? Instead we heap praise into women choosing nonconformity after they’ve heaped all the privilege of their youth by being yoked to a mediocre man?
Why aren’t all these divorce memoir writers apologizing to the nonconformist women and femmes who have been here all along? Who they bullied and shamed for not conforming?
I want more contrition from these women for their (sometimes inadvertent) crimes against feminism and other women’s nonconformity through their promotion of patriarchal pressure to settle down and have children with shitty men.
I think this new generation will be different. We cannot go back but now it is clear that all people are coming to see the scam and that by pressuring others to fit into a norm that is by definition and purpose exploitative, we've failed everyone. I don't know that every woman who got married bullied and shamed those for not conforming. I don't feel like I did. I was just mindlessly following the path set out for me. I also see books coming out about women who have chosen not to have kids. I'm thinking of Ruby Warrington and Glynnis McNicol. Fresh Starts is emphasizing that all stages of life should be celebrated, not just marriage and babies. We are getting there. It takes all of us working together to fight the systems that have been in place to feed us into this patriarchal system. I guess I would hope you would see women who are leaving marriages as allies instead of further enemies.
I understand and agree with you. I just want Lyz Lenz et al to have more self-awareness of the harm they caused to the nonconformist women whose lives and ideologies they are appropriating and uplifting for themselves now.
Because it feels pretty shitty to have my lifestyle and ideologies appropriated by the same people who shamed me for that lifestyle in my 20s. New divorcees are not just victims of patriarchy. They were also the police force for patriarchal in their 20s and 30s. This victim mantle obfuscates their complicity in sexism. And now they get rewarded with book contracts and endless thinkpieces while those who had the bravery to resist from the beginning get nothing?!
Straight cis female divorcees owe a lot more to queer and nonconformist women than just the shitty lip service we get. We have been working on the liberation all the while our heteronormative sisters used marriage and childrearing as an excuse to narrow their feminist focus and not show up.
This hits home on so many levels, where to begin… I also hit my breaking point at 14 years of marriage. And this was a 20-year relationship in total. We’re still in the early stages of mediation, but I already feel a lightness, emerging clarity and the start of a profound transformation that I can’t quite comprehend yet. To quote Thelma: “I don’t remember ever feeling this awake”…I’m still coming out of the slumber, but I’m more awake every day and, slowly, building self-love, self-worth and an identity where male approval plays no part to speak of.
But at the same time…I can’t deny my deep craving for some degree of male attention and tenderness after being trapped in an icy, loveless marriage for so long. I don’t think I can ever go “on the apps”- and I stress that this is in no way a judgement of those you do-I just know how my brain works and that this would likely be detrimental to my wellbeing. To be honest, I’m a little disappointed by what seems to be the prevailing mindset that going on/off the apps = “dating” versus “not dating.” Is there really no hope for finding people to casually date without them? Then again, do I even want to “date” or am I really just looking for no-strings-attached-whatsoever-sex, at least for time being? I’m honestly not sure.
Anyway, I cannot wait to read Liars- I’m on the longest library waitlist I’ve ever encountered, which I think speaks volumes.
Second, I agree with you. I can’t seem to make myself go on the apps but that doesn’t mean I don’t hope for some really good connections and sex. I too hope that this will come via real life interactions or maybe a friend from the past who pops back into my life or even some people who are still married who I feel a connection with and I just feel like with most marriages, it is just a matter of time before it falls apart. Maybe a hot cop pulls me over? There are a million ways I think I could find a connection outside the apps. I think I’d love to fall in love again and see what it feels like to be loved well. Maybe I need to start a whole conversation in the chats feature for women who want to unpack this very issue. Stay tuned!
I'd love to explore this in-depth with other women! E.g. although I have absolutely no desire to revisit the bar-hopping, alcohol-fueled hookups of my early 20's, I have to wonder what the more mature version of this might look like. I'm also definitely game for a good old fashioned set-up (come to think of it, that's an app that I would join, i.e. "date my friend" : -). And totally with you re: the possibility of love. I hope to at least once in my lifetime experience a joyful, loving relationship that is deeply rooted in mutual respect, curiosity, emotional intimacy, and yes, mind blowing sex.
I never used the apps and had more male attention than I wanted after my divorce! Just go do the things YOU want to do for their own sake and your sake—ignore the whole “are men going to be there” question entirely. Be unapologetically your real self! Get sooo strong and autonomous and free and happy! And then if some man is there, your new strengths (not looking around trying to find a man and certainly not modifying what you’re doing or saying for any man’s sake) will run off the bad ones fast like a magic charm, and only the men who actually like strong, smart, independent, non needy women will stick around. Then if you wish, you can decide if any of them are worth dating. But it’s very clear you’re not going back! So you can date or not at your own leisure and for your own pleasure. After 20 years I too escaped marriage and in the 25+ years since the escape I have been THRILLED TO BE SINGLE. I mean like profoundly happy. Happier than ever in my whole life prior to the divorce. And I did date some, just for sex and friendship, at about year 5 after the divorce but only in year 8 did I meet a male friend who turned out to be a great long term partner (lived separately as partners for years then he moved in to my house and paid rent and split expenses, so I could kick him out at any moment (it was in the lease). And he’s been fine all along. So far anyway but he knows absolutely that I’m not his maid or his mom or his sex toy. This is an equal partners relationship and he knows if it’s not I will not be in it and he will be kicked out! So that works very well for us both.
AnonC, I'm so happy that you're so happy! And I love this: "Be unapologetically your real self! Get sooo strong and autonomous and free and happy!" Thank you, these are truly words to live by that I will revisit again and again as I work to acknowledge and then banish the patriarchal lies and set free my true wild self.
PREACH. Exquisitely written (and cited). Divorced six years, unsuccessfully dating in spats and pauses for several of them, this captures my latest circulating thoughts.
The problem with the “ the load debate”” is that woman assume that their priorities are everyone’s priorities. I deep clean the house twice a month, my wife feels the need to clean more often, that’s her priority not mine. I didn’t ask her to clean more often. The same thing with laundry. My priority is to make sure me and the kids have clean clothes to wear the next day, if the laundry bin is full, but we have clothes to wear for a few days I’m not worried, it’s my wife who feels the need to do laundry just because the bin is full. Woman think we are putting the load on them, when they are just fulfilling their priorities
Cindy, I loved every word of this thoughtful piece, related to so much of it, and now every one of these books including of course LIARS is on my TBR list. Thanks, too, for linking to my piece on dating after 35 years. I am having the time of my life here in Europe for two months, hanging with my single friends, in their 60s, like me. And quite a number of them are divorced and living full, happy, independent solo lives. Dating and remarriage is really not in the picture and if so it's secondary. They're simply living their best lives. No time to waste! I am appreciating the warm, appraising glances of men as I walk the streets of Stockholm (and soon in Paris and Barcelona) and what's so wonderful about learning these late-in-life lessons about my intrinsic worth and happiness is that the male gaze can come my way, linger and I'll just think, "That's right, my friend. This is what an empowered female looks like." And I walk on by....for now. One of these days, when the timing is right, I may linger and have that conversation, indulge that interest. For now, I'm much too excited to meet up with my friends or take my lovely self for a drink by the waterfront.
Ah...the 14 year mark...if I only I'd been courageous enough then. It took me much longer to get out of the institution and the lies I'd been telling myself about how it served me. That said, I was ready when I was ready and no sooner. If looking back serves my healing, then I give it some space and time to reflect. If not, I move forward.
Mostly, these days, I move forward. The future looks bright.
These past two nights I had spontaneous conversations with women in Stockholm. One was in her mid-30s, an Iranian-Swedish high school teacher who had taken herself out for a drink to listen to jazz (just as I had), no man or any companion needed to enjoy herself--something women her age in Sweden don't often do. But she was so comfortable in her own skin.
And this morning at a coffee shop I had a two hour conversation with a perfect stranger who by the end of it was a friend, a woman of 43, who had a 3 month old baby, the father of the child not interested in being a relationship or parenting, and that was fine with her. She was of Bangladesh heritage, a Californian, living in Sweden for work, and again, so comfortable in her own skin and her own empowered choices. I will have this baby, I will find a way to move to Zurich, I will have a relationship with a man or I won't.
These younger women show me that things can change from the traditional heterosexual married and parenting roles that were so prevalent for me and my friends thirty years ago; certainly I see a lot more "fair play" among younger Swedish couples.
Thanks, Cindy again, for this essay.
I like this, Amy!!!
I was married for 20 years, divorced and now find myself an empty-nester… and living alone. I feel like a teenager again, discovering who I should have been. It took some getting used to and going through a divorce was very difficult for everyone involved, but honestly, I’ve never been happier!
I'm on the same reading track as you! Just finished Liars last week and can't stop thinking about it. As a newly separated mom of a young child (I only made it to 8 years), I'm loving being in relationship with myself and my child. But I can't get over how many other married women ask me what dating is like, (I tell them I have no interest), and why I keep wearing my wedding band (because in S.C. I'm still technically married and I'm trying to shield myself from other men!). I know I will never marry again and I'm astounded at how a lot of the topics in divorce support groups is about that very topic - did we not all learn the first time around?!
Agree! Like, why would I date right now? I’m just so glad to finally have some time to myself!
I can't wait to read this book but also..... I did not know that about 14 years? Which is wild because mine ended after 11 years of marriage but.... 14 years since we had started dating (to the month!).
I mean, I don’t have a wide data set on the 14 years but the fact that it keeps coming up has me wondering!
I'm getting divorced after five years of marriage, but we have also been together 14. And the one time I seriously considered leaving him was around year seven. Itch is a funny way to describe it. For me, it was more of a deep inner knowing, as Glennon describes it, that this was not what I wanted for my life. I was able to push it down and distract myself the first time, but no longer. Reading and learning from other women who have been through it has been a huge source of comfort for me. Grateful for this community and grateful to myself for pushing through this, as messy and impossible as it feels. I know that I will come out of the other side to create the life that I want for myself and my daughter.
Yes, Glennon’s not this! For so long, I thought the issue was motherhood. Now I see it was marriage. So happy for you.
I grew up in the wake of my grandparents' terrible marriage, my mother and 1 of her 2 sisters both divorced, the other sister drank herself to death when she couldn't get out. My father left us when the baby was dying, my uncle brought his girlfriend to my aunt's funeral (they were not separated). I came of age in the 80s, and have *never* understood why anyone my age or younger bought the whole love-and-romance-marriage narrative, much less bought it so wholeheartedly. Mary Wollstonecraft died in 1797 and we've been having this same discussion of the "death of marriage" every 40 years ever since.
As Joni Mitchell sang: "Some girls' going to see that dress, and crave that day like crazy."
You are right, this isn’t new. I came of age in evangelicalism thus it was presumed you would marry because it was the only way to have sex!
I only thought of that later -- sorry if I sounded cranky, but the ahistorical nature of this latest round of Divorce Discourse is making my older feminist heart deeply sore. As is the fact that somehow all of our efforts in the 80s and 90s apparently made zero difference.
I think the multiple rounds speak to the fact of how hard it is to escape an institution that our entire society is built around and depends on. It is like breaking generational trauma or the pull of gravity. You have to fight like hell to not get sucked back in.
I think it's like any fight for freedom. We have to keep doing it, and doing it for everyone, and doing it collectively because the forces of power, patriarchy and capitalism will ALWAYS try to take more than their share.
But we can do it together!
Hi Cindy, a wonderful thoughtful article. Thank you.
I 'escaped' - that word again - an abusive 22 year marriage two decades ago with five children....
Many years later, after many difficult years in the Family Court and ongoing abuse from the father of my children, I have healed. I have worked hard on myself and recovered from the physical and psychological damage I had suffered.
Best of all at 55 I commenced a four year Professional Writing Course which has been an incredible gift and joy. It is never too late to realize you dreams! I love writing and lately poetry has become my genre of choice! Because completely unexpectedly, after two decades of blissfully, jealously enjoying my solitude I have fallen in love. Actually, really fallen in love. With a gentle, romantic and kind man. A respectful, considerate man, who adores me equally. We are having the best sex of our lives at 63 and 67!! I send him erotic poetry to surprise him on his mountain property! My lecturer from the course wants me to share them with her, but I am too shy. Not too shy to be enjoying the best time of my life, where we are doing as we choose, together, joyfully.
I absolutely applaud all those fabulous women out there who are exuding confidence and completeness as single women. It is a well earned place to be and you go girl!
In my case I am now taking many lessons out of the play book of my 40 year old daughter as I now negotiate something I never considered I would think about again - an intimate relationship!
It is glorious to have the chance to practice all my hard earned wisdom and to be met with love.
Cheers Sally
I love your story and am so happy for you. I do want a fulfilling relationship some day, I think. But when I am ready. And when it is the right person. Cheering you on and thanks for your incredible, hope inducing story.
Every single word is what I have been feeling, examining, and researching, wondering about since I began walking the path of divorce. Each step away from the marriage- which is so much bigger than just the relationship with him- brings a deep sense of freedom and grounding in my true self. It’s wild discovery to have made…
It is so crazy, right? Like no one prepares you for this side of divorce. They only focus on what it does for the kids and how devastating it is. But yes to freedom and grounding in my true self. I feel this too.
Wow, 6 weeks out from my 14.5 year marriage and this is spot on. Thanks for the review, liars will be my next read. Cheers!
Congrats and I hope you like it!
I love it, thank you so much for writing this up. I definitely feel that I need some form of companionship and marriage does provide that companionship, but it is sad that generations of men have ruined the institution. I am still navigating around these ideas, and talking and discussing about these pointers with my loved ones.
I too love this proliferation of divorce narratives because even if marriage is not going extinct, there is certainly a surge of liberating ourselves from patriarchal marriage and the expectations intrinsic to nuclear families! And as always I love your take on it.
I also divorced around 14 years (and my divorce papers are finalized on the date of my wedding, literally full circle closing the loop!). Perhaps Saturn returns have something to do with this??
As I grow older and see more types of relationships I'm more open to there being no monolith around marriage, partnership, family structure, etc. Many people I know have monogamous romantic relationships that tremendously help regulate their nervous system and not in a co-dependent way. I for one am not dating and don't have expectations for the future, but I can realize that different lives need to follow different paths.
I totally agree that I think for some, who maybe didn’t have such destructive patterns in their first marriage, it can feel good to get back into a partnership. Because I don’t yet know how to partner without erasing myself, I’m hesitant!
I inhaled Liars. I haven’t read a book that fast in years.
I am having some really hard conversations with my spouse lately about how and why our marriage may not be sustainable. About how and why we may no longer “work”. The other day he picked up Liars off the table and said, “your head has been in this book all weekend, what’s it all about?” When he read the book description, he tossed a, “hmmmm 14 years, huh?” with a raised eyebrow and side stare then walked away. It took me a few minutes to figure out what the hell that was all about and then it hit me. In October we will be married 14 years. I hadn’t even considered or remembered that. Talk about amnesia. 😳
This piece was so well done, Cindy. I felt so much resonance.
I also loved All of This by Rebecca Woolf. It split me open (in the best ways).
And this line you quote from Rebecca: “absence of a need to negotiate and compromise.” Oh my - that is what I am craving. The self abandonment that can creep in while we are zigzagging our way through marriage has recently felt like too much to carry. And too glaring not to look at.
Thanks for writing this 🙏🏼
I’m sorry you are in this state. The in between of not knowing whether to stay or not is the hardest part. One I decided I almost felt relief. Also, the comment about “absent the need to negotiate and compromise” was my comment to Rebecca’s piece! But it felt so important, a development in my own thinking, that I wanted to include it. I really feel like all these conversations on Substack are helping us all evolve our thinking about these issues.
Thank you, Cindy. This land of in between is jarring. There are so many layers to it. I appreciate your kind words.
Thanks got the clarification on your comment to Rebecca’s piece - wow that landed. The compromising can be a grind.
It does help to hear from other women who have stood here, who have felt this and gone through it.
I just finished reading Liars two days ago and both the book and your post about it really resonated with me. I got divorced five years ago and I thought I spent enough time in therapy sessions feeling all the feelings about this, but reading Liars unearthed another layer of anger. Perhaps not even directed at my own life but at the patriarchy as a whole. I often wonder if we've emancipated women to live the lives of men, while forgetting to emancipate men to live the lives of women. And now all the women are just doing everything while the men feel left behind and jealous of these successful women? I honestly hope that we can all evolve to a world where you don't have to chose between yourself and your relationship but it can be both.
All of these millennials getting divorced in early midlife were getting married at the socially and patriarchally validated proper age of 24-29. They spent their entire 20s obsessing about their boyfriends, then cohabitation, then fiancés, then weddings, then children. They only talked about their successful heterosexual life stages. They had no interest in talking about their wants or needs in homosocial environments. They made their friends pay $1000s to attend their weddings while making no collateral investment in their friendships with single women. They pitied their single friends. They pressured us to settle. They troubleshot our “dating difficulties” with individual solutions.
They made all of us who were choosing nonconformity feel as shitty as possible because they perceived themselves to be the winners. And winners needs the public existence of “losers” to make themselves feel better.
Guess what?! Your never married friends and your queer friends have known hetero marriage was a scam all along. Where are all of our books and cultural accolades?!? Why can’t we get book contracts and effusive praise for our ACTUAL bravery in rejecting conformity?!? Why can’t a woman who chose polyamory when it was socially inconvenient (before child reading) have her voice heard in the mainstream? Instead we heap praise into women choosing nonconformity after they’ve heaped all the privilege of their youth by being yoked to a mediocre man?
Why aren’t all these divorce memoir writers apologizing to the nonconformist women and femmes who have been here all along? Who they bullied and shamed for not conforming?
I want more contrition from these women for their (sometimes inadvertent) crimes against feminism and other women’s nonconformity through their promotion of patriarchal pressure to settle down and have children with shitty men.
I think this new generation will be different. We cannot go back but now it is clear that all people are coming to see the scam and that by pressuring others to fit into a norm that is by definition and purpose exploitative, we've failed everyone. I don't know that every woman who got married bullied and shamed those for not conforming. I don't feel like I did. I was just mindlessly following the path set out for me. I also see books coming out about women who have chosen not to have kids. I'm thinking of Ruby Warrington and Glynnis McNicol. Fresh Starts is emphasizing that all stages of life should be celebrated, not just marriage and babies. We are getting there. It takes all of us working together to fight the systems that have been in place to feed us into this patriarchal system. I guess I would hope you would see women who are leaving marriages as allies instead of further enemies.
I understand and agree with you. I just want Lyz Lenz et al to have more self-awareness of the harm they caused to the nonconformist women whose lives and ideologies they are appropriating and uplifting for themselves now.
Because it feels pretty shitty to have my lifestyle and ideologies appropriated by the same people who shamed me for that lifestyle in my 20s. New divorcees are not just victims of patriarchy. They were also the police force for patriarchal in their 20s and 30s. This victim mantle obfuscates their complicity in sexism. And now they get rewarded with book contracts and endless thinkpieces while those who had the bravery to resist from the beginning get nothing?!
Straight cis female divorcees owe a lot more to queer and nonconformist women than just the shitty lip service we get. We have been working on the liberation all the while our heteronormative sisters used marriage and childrearing as an excuse to narrow their feminist focus and not show up.
It seems like a form of columbusing. Which white liberal women seem to really enjoy doing LOL.
This hits home on so many levels, where to begin… I also hit my breaking point at 14 years of marriage. And this was a 20-year relationship in total. We’re still in the early stages of mediation, but I already feel a lightness, emerging clarity and the start of a profound transformation that I can’t quite comprehend yet. To quote Thelma: “I don’t remember ever feeling this awake”…I’m still coming out of the slumber, but I’m more awake every day and, slowly, building self-love, self-worth and an identity where male approval plays no part to speak of.
But at the same time…I can’t deny my deep craving for some degree of male attention and tenderness after being trapped in an icy, loveless marriage for so long. I don’t think I can ever go “on the apps”- and I stress that this is in no way a judgement of those you do-I just know how my brain works and that this would likely be detrimental to my wellbeing. To be honest, I’m a little disappointed by what seems to be the prevailing mindset that going on/off the apps = “dating” versus “not dating.” Is there really no hope for finding people to casually date without them? Then again, do I even want to “date” or am I really just looking for no-strings-attached-whatsoever-sex, at least for time being? I’m honestly not sure.
Anyway, I cannot wait to read Liars- I’m on the longest library waitlist I’ve ever encountered, which I think speaks volumes.
Second, I agree with you. I can’t seem to make myself go on the apps but that doesn’t mean I don’t hope for some really good connections and sex. I too hope that this will come via real life interactions or maybe a friend from the past who pops back into my life or even some people who are still married who I feel a connection with and I just feel like with most marriages, it is just a matter of time before it falls apart. Maybe a hot cop pulls me over? There are a million ways I think I could find a connection outside the apps. I think I’d love to fall in love again and see what it feels like to be loved well. Maybe I need to start a whole conversation in the chats feature for women who want to unpack this very issue. Stay tuned!
I'd love to explore this in-depth with other women! E.g. although I have absolutely no desire to revisit the bar-hopping, alcohol-fueled hookups of my early 20's, I have to wonder what the more mature version of this might look like. I'm also definitely game for a good old fashioned set-up (come to think of it, that's an app that I would join, i.e. "date my friend" : -). And totally with you re: the possibility of love. I hope to at least once in my lifetime experience a joyful, loving relationship that is deeply rooted in mutual respect, curiosity, emotional intimacy, and yes, mind blowing sex.
First of all, I just stumbled on this new Substack so check it out. https://tothebed.substack.com/?utm_source=%2Fsearch%2FDivorce%2520dating&utm_medium=reader2&utm_campaign=reader2
Subscribed! (And planning to watch Moonstruck : -).
I never used the apps and had more male attention than I wanted after my divorce! Just go do the things YOU want to do for their own sake and your sake—ignore the whole “are men going to be there” question entirely. Be unapologetically your real self! Get sooo strong and autonomous and free and happy! And then if some man is there, your new strengths (not looking around trying to find a man and certainly not modifying what you’re doing or saying for any man’s sake) will run off the bad ones fast like a magic charm, and only the men who actually like strong, smart, independent, non needy women will stick around. Then if you wish, you can decide if any of them are worth dating. But it’s very clear you’re not going back! So you can date or not at your own leisure and for your own pleasure. After 20 years I too escaped marriage and in the 25+ years since the escape I have been THRILLED TO BE SINGLE. I mean like profoundly happy. Happier than ever in my whole life prior to the divorce. And I did date some, just for sex and friendship, at about year 5 after the divorce but only in year 8 did I meet a male friend who turned out to be a great long term partner (lived separately as partners for years then he moved in to my house and paid rent and split expenses, so I could kick him out at any moment (it was in the lease). And he’s been fine all along. So far anyway but he knows absolutely that I’m not his maid or his mom or his sex toy. This is an equal partners relationship and he knows if it’s not I will not be in it and he will be kicked out! So that works very well for us both.
AnonC, I'm so happy that you're so happy! And I love this: "Be unapologetically your real self! Get sooo strong and autonomous and free and happy!" Thank you, these are truly words to live by that I will revisit again and again as I work to acknowledge and then banish the patriarchal lies and set free my true wild self.
PREACH. Exquisitely written (and cited). Divorced six years, unsuccessfully dating in spats and pauses for several of them, this captures my latest circulating thoughts.
Like, Why??
The problem with the “ the load debate”” is that woman assume that their priorities are everyone’s priorities. I deep clean the house twice a month, my wife feels the need to clean more often, that’s her priority not mine. I didn’t ask her to clean more often. The same thing with laundry. My priority is to make sure me and the kids have clean clothes to wear the next day, if the laundry bin is full, but we have clothes to wear for a few days I’m not worried, it’s my wife who feels the need to do laundry just because the bin is full. Woman think we are putting the load on them, when they are just fulfilling their priorities