I think in a marriage- the maiden births into mother that naturally puts her children’s needs as a priority but the man does not - not much changes for him. I think if men could put the needs of their children before themselves like women often do, then she may not be too tired for him Or perhaps they would learn how to be “too tired for sex” together. Children are the priority- sex doesn’t have to come before the demands of the child.
"But motherhood ladens you with other people’s needs, and the expectation that you will just take care of everything. The meals, the planning, new clothes that fit, something fun to do to break up the monotony of family life, and yes, the need for the male in the relationship to feel desired and connected via sex."
Nailed it.
Of course motherhood (as a concept--as it's conceived right now in our culture) is bad for marriage. Loved seeing this put into words!
Thanks for the wisdom and perspective here. As a husband to a mother of 5 with a huge career on top of the labor involved in mothering and wifeing, this sheds a lot of light. Hopefully in time ...
Brilliant and thoroughly well structured article on an emotive subject.
The thought that came into my head, in the context of:
2023 - The New and Modern World we Live In... where Marriage as a social concept is, quite frankly, not what it used to be... is this: “Is Marriage Bad For Marriage?”
The real life ‘proof in the pudding’ is many couples live together for long periods of time with no ‘contract’ in place. It ‘seems’ to generally work quite well. So, a question could be “Does Marriage as the traditional concept we know it as apply now and in the future?”
Personally, I’m not advocating anyone to think this, merely positing: could it be more emotionally, practically and financially efficient in these hectic, crazy times we live in?
I’m not sure if I articulated this as well as I might have, but I think people will get the general idea.
(Footnote: I read last week, the average Wedding cost in the U.S is $44K! And, the Divorce rate is...)
absolutely. I am really surprised that it is still such a mainstay of our culture considering many of us have moved away from the religion that so often underpins the ceremony itself. And yes, the cost of not just the wedding, but then the divorce. Now, I know there are all sort of tax benefits for married people so maybe it all evens out (this would be a fascinating thought exercise if someone was an economist and thus well-versed in how to measure these variables).
When I was getting divorced, it occurred to me that society in the shape of friends and family was very good at testing both sides of the 'about to be married' couple with 'Are you sure' questions, but of course if romantic and sexual excitement are coursing through your veins, you are 'sure'. And then no-one asks again. But it's Incredibly easy to break up a child-free marriage. The decision point, when friends and family should really put the pressure on, is down the line before you start on pregnancy. It is so much harder to split up once you have kids. I remember suddenly realising that because we had children, I would have to go on negotiating a relationship with my husband for the rest of my life because of the children, even after divorce. I would really much rather never having had to think about him again. Even now, 25 years later, he can become the spectre at every family feast.
This is such a good point. That before children is where you really do need to be sure. but alas I was pregnant just a year after our marriage when I would have told you with no doubt in my mind we would last forever.
Don’t ever let a man sway you to his side of things- we have been living on his side long enough. Stand your ground. You were right the first time around with “is marriage bad for motherhood”- it certainly is with a man like your brother in law.
You know your brother in law sounds like a man that needs a mommy for a wife. The only reason he questions if motherhood is bad for marriage is because he is not emotionally mature enough to understand that the children must be a priority over him- he remains a child-begging for her attention and he he becomes just another obligation she must add to her list.
Beth Berry says this in her newsletter today:
If mom can’t handle it AND keep her cool AND look put together AND give the best to her kids, she’s not working hard enough, she’s doing something wrong, or she needs to pray more and serve with more devotion and selflessness.
The ability and willingness to tolerate a LOT is part of what makes a mother “good.” Kind of like what makes a “good” girl is playing small and being pleasant to others no matter what the circumstances, or in other words, getting good at enduring mistreatment.
The truth is we don’t have more capacity for enduring bullshit circumstances and chaos, we just have more brainwashing around it and practice at it. Enduring endlessly is baked into our very identity.
we need to look within at the low capacity for discomfort, self-sacrifice, and inconvenience others have (mainly-men). It’s not that men inherently have less capacity (for patience, dirty diapers, chaos tolerance, researching, staying present and engaged with the kids instead of checking out, etc.), but that they haven’t had to build it.
Men are “seen as “good dads” in the eyes of society by doing the bare minimum.”
~Beth Berry
Men are seen as “good dads” BECAUSE THEY do the bare minimum because if they actually did more than the bare minimum, they would be just as worn out, tired, exhausted and frowned upon by society as the mother and the kids would NOT favor them as the “fun” parent.
Thanks for introducing me to Beth Berry. I will check her out. And to be clear, I don't think my brother-in-law was complaining, but just pointing out an opportunity to explore the other side. Because I think very few people would argue that motherhood enhances marriage, it is just that being open about how the nuclear family fails us is still taboo.
I think a big problem is how small, nuclear families have to look after the children all the time. This is a very modern child caring model. Previously small children were looked after by older children. All children played with other children outside. Extended families in one household was usual, and middle class families often had a maid. Adults in the area knew each other and kept an eye on the kids. Now parents have to be available 24/7.
I always love your posts - thanks for shining lights on these issues for mothers!
Thanks for sharing!
I think in a marriage- the maiden births into mother that naturally puts her children’s needs as a priority but the man does not - not much changes for him. I think if men could put the needs of their children before themselves like women often do, then she may not be too tired for him Or perhaps they would learn how to be “too tired for sex” together. Children are the priority- sex doesn’t have to come before the demands of the child.
Yes!
"But motherhood ladens you with other people’s needs, and the expectation that you will just take care of everything. The meals, the planning, new clothes that fit, something fun to do to break up the monotony of family life, and yes, the need for the male in the relationship to feel desired and connected via sex."
Nailed it.
Of course motherhood (as a concept--as it's conceived right now in our culture) is bad for marriage. Loved seeing this put into words!
thank you!
Thanks for the wisdom and perspective here. As a husband to a mother of 5 with a huge career on top of the labor involved in mothering and wifeing, this sheds a lot of light. Hopefully in time ...
Brilliant and thoroughly well structured article on an emotive subject.
The thought that came into my head, in the context of:
2023 - The New and Modern World we Live In... where Marriage as a social concept is, quite frankly, not what it used to be... is this: “Is Marriage Bad For Marriage?”
The real life ‘proof in the pudding’ is many couples live together for long periods of time with no ‘contract’ in place. It ‘seems’ to generally work quite well. So, a question could be “Does Marriage as the traditional concept we know it as apply now and in the future?”
Personally, I’m not advocating anyone to think this, merely positing: could it be more emotionally, practically and financially efficient in these hectic, crazy times we live in?
I’m not sure if I articulated this as well as I might have, but I think people will get the general idea.
(Footnote: I read last week, the average Wedding cost in the U.S is $44K! And, the Divorce rate is...)
absolutely. I am really surprised that it is still such a mainstay of our culture considering many of us have moved away from the religion that so often underpins the ceremony itself. And yes, the cost of not just the wedding, but then the divorce. Now, I know there are all sort of tax benefits for married people so maybe it all evens out (this would be a fascinating thought exercise if someone was an economist and thus well-versed in how to measure these variables).
When I was getting divorced, it occurred to me that society in the shape of friends and family was very good at testing both sides of the 'about to be married' couple with 'Are you sure' questions, but of course if romantic and sexual excitement are coursing through your veins, you are 'sure'. And then no-one asks again. But it's Incredibly easy to break up a child-free marriage. The decision point, when friends and family should really put the pressure on, is down the line before you start on pregnancy. It is so much harder to split up once you have kids. I remember suddenly realising that because we had children, I would have to go on negotiating a relationship with my husband for the rest of my life because of the children, even after divorce. I would really much rather never having had to think about him again. Even now, 25 years later, he can become the spectre at every family feast.
This is such a good point. That before children is where you really do need to be sure. but alas I was pregnant just a year after our marriage when I would have told you with no doubt in my mind we would last forever.
Don’t ever let a man sway you to his side of things- we have been living on his side long enough. Stand your ground. You were right the first time around with “is marriage bad for motherhood”- it certainly is with a man like your brother in law.
You know your brother in law sounds like a man that needs a mommy for a wife. The only reason he questions if motherhood is bad for marriage is because he is not emotionally mature enough to understand that the children must be a priority over him- he remains a child-begging for her attention and he he becomes just another obligation she must add to her list.
Beth Berry says this in her newsletter today:
If mom can’t handle it AND keep her cool AND look put together AND give the best to her kids, she’s not working hard enough, she’s doing something wrong, or she needs to pray more and serve with more devotion and selflessness.
The ability and willingness to tolerate a LOT is part of what makes a mother “good.” Kind of like what makes a “good” girl is playing small and being pleasant to others no matter what the circumstances, or in other words, getting good at enduring mistreatment.
The truth is we don’t have more capacity for enduring bullshit circumstances and chaos, we just have more brainwashing around it and practice at it. Enduring endlessly is baked into our very identity.
we need to look within at the low capacity for discomfort, self-sacrifice, and inconvenience others have (mainly-men). It’s not that men inherently have less capacity (for patience, dirty diapers, chaos tolerance, researching, staying present and engaged with the kids instead of checking out, etc.), but that they haven’t had to build it.
Men are “seen as “good dads” in the eyes of society by doing the bare minimum.”
~Beth Berry
Men are seen as “good dads” BECAUSE THEY do the bare minimum because if they actually did more than the bare minimum, they would be just as worn out, tired, exhausted and frowned upon by society as the mother and the kids would NOT favor them as the “fun” parent.
Thanks for introducing me to Beth Berry. I will check her out. And to be clear, I don't think my brother-in-law was complaining, but just pointing out an opportunity to explore the other side. Because I think very few people would argue that motherhood enhances marriage, it is just that being open about how the nuclear family fails us is still taboo.
I think a big problem is how small, nuclear families have to look after the children all the time. This is a very modern child caring model. Previously small children were looked after by older children. All children played with other children outside. Extended families in one household was usual, and middle class families often had a maid. Adults in the area knew each other and kept an eye on the kids. Now parents have to be available 24/7.
Absolutely agree. Our siloed lives have increased the burden on mothers.