two therapists on narcissism in couples therapy, how to avoid the harm so many therapists unknowingly inflict, and how to tell if you're experiencing narcissistic abuse
I am forever grateful to the therapist who said to me, in our third session, when I was close to deciding about leaving my 33-year marriage: ‘I think you’re done with Bill.’ I sat there in shock that she said that, but she was right. I was done, and had been for some time.
It was an individual therapist. He had refused couples therapy a few months earlier and taken off instead on a long trip, far away from me and that possibility.
Men with Borderline have a lot of overlap with covert narcissists and the resulting therapy is equally maddening. I can't believe how long I bashed my head against that wall. Thank you for writing this.
Couples therapy can suck because you might show up to go through some intense pain your partner put you through, but out of “fairness” they want to talk about other issues too, even if it completely distracts from the perpetrator and makes them feel righteous. It’s a recipe for disaster for so many people. And our culture frowns upon people not doing it and ending a marriage or relationship. God forbid someone knows what they want, people’s first response is “well have you tried couples counseling?” As if it’s all just down to bad communication. Dreadful.
OMG yes, the dreaded communication issues. I too came into couples therapy thinking we had communication issues. In fact, I recently found the email I sent to the therapist about why we were entering therapy and I couldn't read it because I knew that it was likely full of delusions about what our issues truly were instead of the truth which was years of not seeing each other, invalidation on both sides, wounds from our childhood neither of us wanted to face, and the fact that we never should have gotten married in the first place. Oof.
You know - I experienced adverse results of couples therapy with my covert narc ex-husband. The seasoned "expert" therapist was unresponsive to the crap that was going on. She knew something was off, but retreated to talking points and it was me who cut off the sessions. Thanks to my intuition and inner resolve - even though I was barely holding on by a thread - I navigated myself out of that incredibly underhanded tactic of my narc ex's. I have my own supportive therapist who my ex husband, of course, refused to see. I don't think you can "train" someone to handle narc predator spouses - I think if people are lucky enough to find an intuitive therapist who can see through the b.s. and call it out they are lucky indeed.
Oof, it is a hard pill to swallow that this isn't something we can train therapists to do but instead requires a kind of insight/wisdom/vision to be able to see and identify. I do hope that as more therapists wake up to the patriarchy inherent in marriage as an institution they will learn to prioritize and listen to the women in the relationship almost more than the men as a way to counteract what typically happens but who knows.
I appreciate this post. It's so important to share these insights from therapists, whom we might assume are experts at all relationship dynamics. I love that Pumphrey references DARVO and want to give credit to the founder of this important framework, Dr. Jennifer Freyd: https://www.jjfreyd.com/ and her non-profit Center for Institutional Courage: https://www.institutionalcourage.org/
This is exactly why couples therapy with a narcissist is dangerous: the therapist becomes another prop in the manipulation cycle. Your breakdown of DARVO, coercive control, and the structural blind spots in the field was incredibly needed.
I am forever grateful to the therapist who said to me, in our third session, when I was close to deciding about leaving my 33-year marriage: ‘I think you’re done with Bill.’ I sat there in shock that she said that, but she was right. I was done, and had been for some time.
Wow. Was this your individual therapist or a couples therapist? What a gentle way to put it. That's lovely.
It was an individual therapist. He had refused couples therapy a few months earlier and taken off instead on a long trip, far away from me and that possibility.
Men with Borderline have a lot of overlap with covert narcissists and the resulting therapy is equally maddening. I can't believe how long I bashed my head against that wall. Thank you for writing this.
Preeeeach! After the second couples therapist, I figured out his game and knew I was leaving.
Such a great article, thank you.
Couples therapy can suck because you might show up to go through some intense pain your partner put you through, but out of “fairness” they want to talk about other issues too, even if it completely distracts from the perpetrator and makes them feel righteous. It’s a recipe for disaster for so many people. And our culture frowns upon people not doing it and ending a marriage or relationship. God forbid someone knows what they want, people’s first response is “well have you tried couples counseling?” As if it’s all just down to bad communication. Dreadful.
OMG yes, the dreaded communication issues. I too came into couples therapy thinking we had communication issues. In fact, I recently found the email I sent to the therapist about why we were entering therapy and I couldn't read it because I knew that it was likely full of delusions about what our issues truly were instead of the truth which was years of not seeing each other, invalidation on both sides, wounds from our childhood neither of us wanted to face, and the fact that we never should have gotten married in the first place. Oof.
You know - I experienced adverse results of couples therapy with my covert narc ex-husband. The seasoned "expert" therapist was unresponsive to the crap that was going on. She knew something was off, but retreated to talking points and it was me who cut off the sessions. Thanks to my intuition and inner resolve - even though I was barely holding on by a thread - I navigated myself out of that incredibly underhanded tactic of my narc ex's. I have my own supportive therapist who my ex husband, of course, refused to see. I don't think you can "train" someone to handle narc predator spouses - I think if people are lucky enough to find an intuitive therapist who can see through the b.s. and call it out they are lucky indeed.
Totally agree. It takes skill and experience to spot the person causing the problems in the relationship
Oof, it is a hard pill to swallow that this isn't something we can train therapists to do but instead requires a kind of insight/wisdom/vision to be able to see and identify. I do hope that as more therapists wake up to the patriarchy inherent in marriage as an institution they will learn to prioritize and listen to the women in the relationship almost more than the men as a way to counteract what typically happens but who knows.
I appreciate this post. It's so important to share these insights from therapists, whom we might assume are experts at all relationship dynamics. I love that Pumphrey references DARVO and want to give credit to the founder of this important framework, Dr. Jennifer Freyd: https://www.jjfreyd.com/ and her non-profit Center for Institutional Courage: https://www.institutionalcourage.org/
Thank you. I will make sure to link to her in the post.
This is exactly why couples therapy with a narcissist is dangerous: the therapist becomes another prop in the manipulation cycle. Your breakdown of DARVO, coercive control, and the structural blind spots in the field was incredibly needed.
I want to ask Kate where I can sign the petition to change the license to Systems Therapist!!! Spot on. Revisions are needed all along the way!
Right? Such a good idea.